I've been using Wesp's patch for a while now. Honestly, I like the majority of the changes it makes that don't affect core gameplay.
However, there are minor things I don't like about it, and so I would be interested in trying a "clean" patch. However, I still would like to have some of the features from Wesp's patch available.
I have no idea how many of these are available as mods. The improved eyes, the reinserted music for the beach front, the short Hellcat sequence at the hotel where it rams the trailer once you get the key... those are things I would like to keep. Some of the restored NPC lines are pretty amusing too. However, for me there is a fine line between restoring deleted content and just adding things. Nine being able to give you a grenade for the final battle stands out, as it's pretty much implied he used that to survive the werewolf. Moving Fat Larry does make a bit more sense, as his original location was selling illegal merchandise next to a parking lot security guard out in the open...
I don't really care about weapon mods, or most gameplay additions. (Although the option to keep heather from getting killed in your apartment is pretty neat.) That's just asking for gameplay balance issues.
I know that there is a lot of... ill-will towards the patch and its author. I don't really want to get involved in that as I can see both sides.
Just wondering how many changes I'd be able to manually deploy along with the True Patch.
Hi there. I will do my best to respond to you as honestly as I can...Quote from: Prisoner416 on December 14, 2011, 06:40:54 PMThe improved eyes
Wesp appropriated those eye textures from a pre-existing mod, created by a modder who goes by the name of "Nivea." That mod is available separately. Just do a Google search for "Bloodlines Nivea eye mod," or whatever. I forget the exact name of the mod, but I do know that it has always been available separately from the author. I was using it myself at one point, back before I created my own eye textures.
Quotethe reinserted music for the beach front
...is something that Wesp made up out of his own silly head. The only music which is supposed to be playing on the beach is the music coming from the ghetto blaster ("A Smaller God" by Darling Violetta). The beach is supposed to be quiet for a reason... and that reason is a little something called "atmosphere," a concept which Wesp seems to be completely oblivious to.
See next comment...Quote...the short Hellcat sequence at the hotel where it rams the trailer once you get the key...
That sequence was cut from the final game for a reason, after Troika play-tested the haunted hotel level. It was removed because it diminished the scary surprise that we experience when we first approach the front door to the hotel (the nearby light bulb explodes). If we had gotten a prior scare from the Hellcat sequence, then the shock value of our approach to the main entry would have been far less scary for the player. Thus, Troika wisely decided to cut that sequence altogether. They decided that it was redundant, necause it had the effect of making our initial approach to the hotel -less- scary... not more scary.
Once again, Wesp has no understanding of the all-important ambiance and atmosphere within this game, which explains why he has been gleefully "restoring" cutting room floor garbage that Troika DELIBERATELY cut from Bloodlines.
The term "restoration" refers to replacing something which is
supposed to be there, but is missing. Sadly, almost NONE of Wesp's so-called "restorations" fit that description. In almost every case, Wesp has simply re-inserted unwanted material that Troika deliberately removed from the game. As for why they removed various bits and pieces, it is for the same reason that a film editor cuts and edits the raw footage for a movie: so that the final version will have better continuity and thus, be more entertaining overall. But by re-inserting all of that discarded material, Wesp has essentially undermined the efforts of the original developers, by ruining their final cut of the game. I don't call that a "restoration." On the contrary -- I call it sabotage. I am sorry if that sounds harsh... but when you think it over very carefully, you can't help but come to the same conclusion.
Quote...those are things I would like to keep.
Well with all due respect, I can't imagine why -- since most of that discarded material
ruins the original mood and continuity of Bloodlines. It effectively changes the game into something far more juvenile, to be honest. That's why Troika removed all of those snippets in the first place, as I have already explained. And that is why no version of the True Patch has ever done something so foolish as to forcibly re-insert material that
the original authors didn't want to be in the final version of the game.Wesp's "kitchen sink" approach is irresponsible. It may give a small thrill to people who want to see new things in an old game... but it has also had the unfortunate side effect of undermining the pace, continuity, balance and atmosphere of the original game. For Wesp to have done such a thing to Troika's final masterpiece is... in my opinion... completely unforgivable.
QuoteMoving Fat Larry does make a bit more sense, as his original location was selling illegal merchandise next to a parking lot security guard out in the open...
Actually, no. The decision by Troika to move Larry into a brightly lit area makes more sense. They no doubt moved Larry so that the player would have a better chance of finding him -before- trying to do any of the Act Two quests. We need the armor and weapons that Larry has for sale. But in his original location, he was too well hidden in a dark alleyway... a place where the player might not find him until we were well into the second act. So, Larry was moved... to a more conspicuous and "player-friendly" location.
As for the nearby security guard, how do we know that he isn't on the take..? Larry could be giving him bribes. It just so happens to be a particularly seedy part of the city... so the notion of a corrupt security guard taking bribes from a local thug is hardly a stretch of the imagination. There are a couple of hookers a block away. There are street gangs fighting with guns and knives in the streets just around the corner. The Russian mafia is over on the next street... and likewise very close to another security guard. So it seems quite plausible to me that the local security guards are on the take.
How else can we explain their apparent disinterest in the rampant crime taking place all around them..?Wesp didn't consider any of these fine points, because quite frankly, Wesp is a moron. I'm sorry -- but he really is. He is very young... barely out of adolescence, in fact... and hence very naive. Which is why he should stop forcing his idiotic and ill-conceived notions of "improvements" upon the rest of the Bloodlines community. No wonder his most rabid fans are all teenagers.
From a gameplay standpoint, Wesp simply has no idea what he is doing. Oh sure... he knows a fair amount about the nuts-and-bolts of this game, but almost nothing about its underlying mood and atmosphere. The sad fact of the matter is that Wesp doesn't do these things because
he should... he just does them because
he can. And that is almost always a mistake... and eventually, it becomes a trap. A trap which, at this point, Wesp will probably never be able to escape from. He has managed to butcher Bloodlines so extensively that at this point, about half of each new release of his "unofficial patch" consists of repairs to things that Wesp himself broke in a previous version. Which to me seems rather pathetic.
***
The bottom line is this: a patch is a patch, and a mod is a mod. Third-party patches should simply fix bugs. If the end user wants anything beyond that, then that is what mods and modders are for.
Give the TPG a try. If you decide that you want something extra to be added to the game, and if you can not find an appropriate TPG-compatible mod, then come to me and let's talk. I happen to be a modder.... and in fact, I happen to have created the single largest Bloodlines mod in existence ("Tessera's VTMB Mega-Mod"). And we have a few other people on this site who are likewise pretty good at constructing mods. So if what you desire is feasible, then I have no doubt that we will be able to put something together.
I hope this post has helped to answer your questions. I also hope that it has helped you to perhaps gain a somewhat new perspective on this entire situation.
I agree with the idea that a patch should be as pure as possible. However, at the same time I do feel that some of the deleted content does well in the game. The hellcat sequence, to me, just doesn't seem to be fully programmed. It doesn't really take away the scare from the light.
The music, well, from what I understand those tracks were provided by Rik Schaffer, the original game composer. Who knows if they were put in the right sections or not, though.
Mainly, I like the idea of the restored dialog and hooks for idle states. Yes, I know... it can make the NPC's a bit chatty at times... but a lot of the dialog was funny, and I hate seeing good material like that getting wasted.
Also, the only other concern I have is the replacement model for a certain video tape in the True patch... I play the game around my older parents a lot since they are into the storyline, and that would be... awkward.
Your parents..? I'm not sure why an adult would care whether or not his parents approve of how he spends his leisure time, but whatever. I'll just respond by asking you this: how do your parents feel about the topless dancers in Vesuvius..? Or the hookers giving blowjobs right out in the open, both in Downtown and in Chinatown..?
And how about all of that violence, blood and gore..? Are they okay with that..? Probably... which is rather typical. Violence and murder are fine... but nipples are evil. Gotcha. ::)
Bloodlines is a game which features nudity, prostitution, violence, gore, murder, serial killings, torture, sex crimes, disturbing adult themes and drug use right out of the box. The very opening scene, in fact, depicts what appears to be the aftermath of a kinky sexual encounter (complete with handcuffs attached to the bed frame and underwear strewn upon the floor), followed by a sudden and frightening murder. This is not a game for children or prudes. Bloodlines is an adult game, intended for mature and NON-REPRESSED players.
So if your parents can handle watching R-rated movies, then they shouldn't have any problem with Bloodlines.
And please stop using the term "restored." I have already explained that nearly all of Wesp's so-called "restored" content is actually unwanted garbage that was purposefully discarded by the developers. It is not missing... it is not incomplete... and it is certainly not some secret, hidden content that only Wesp knows about. It was CUT OUT OF THE GAME FOR A REASON. If Troika had been given more time to do a final cleanup on the retail game package, then all of those discarded files would have been removed from the installation disks.
Your opinions regarding the purposefully cut Hellcat sequence are noted. However, the developers at Troika disagreed with that opinion... and that is why the sequence in question was discarded. And I likewise agree with their decision to remove it, because I feel that it would degrade the events which happen at the main entry to the hotel. Too many sudden shocks in a row can desensitize the player... which would have the effect of making that entire level have much less impact. So it does not belong in the game, period. If someone wants to put it back, then that's fine... but such arbitrary changes should -never- be incorporated into a third-party patch. I personally would never create such a mod, because to do so would be to undermine the timing and the suspense of that entire sequence of events.
The video tape that you are referring to is the Guy Magazine R-rated swimsuit video, featuring Imalia. Gary's own description of that tape makes it clear that Imalia appears topless in that video. He also states that the tape was "pulled from the store shelves," which further makes it clear that it contained R-rated content. Hence my decision to create a texture for it which is consistent with what we see on similar video tape boxes: topless girls leering at you, which in turn induces people to purchase those videos. Keep in mind that there was no proper texture for that video in the default game... it was missing completely. It was sharing the same texture as the Death Mask Productions snuff film, which is obviously incorrect. We therefore needed a new and unique texture for it -- so I went ahead and created an appropriate texture, 100% based upon the in-game description of that item.
At any rate, I am getting the impression that you would prefer to play Wesp's heavily bastardized and dumbed-down version of Bloodlines, instead of Troika's brilliant and atmospheric version. If that is indeed the case, then the True Patch is definitely not for you. Our patch simply fixes all of the bugs in the game... and that's it. As I have said several times before... if we want anything beyond that, then we always have the option to install TPG-compatible mods.
My last word is this: if you have never played the TPG version of Bloodlines, then you really have no way of knowing whether or not you might prefer the original Troika experience. So my suggestion still stands: give it a try first... and then draw your own conclusions. You have absolutely nothing to lose... and possibly, some new insights to gain.
Well, to be honest, I am 24, and it would be a bit more awkward for them. The blowjobs were cut out, weren't they? Even with the unofficial patch, they are normally in alleys I can avoid.
I don't give a damn if they approve of it, but it's better then her telling me all about the Twilight series she is ever so fond of.
She enjoys the dialog and plot, as do I. We're fairly liberal in our views. However, I probably won't show her Vesuvius outside of VV's dialog. The Sin Bin should be fine.
Again, I don't have a patch/mod preference. I wish some of the Wesp additions WERE available as a separate mod as otherwise I prefer the True Patch. I don't like how he's added content out of nothing (sending Gimble to Vandal, Nine's Grenade, etc.), but I do like some of the minor, non-gameplay changes. Anything that actually affects core gameplay, combat, dialog, should be available as separate mods or options.
Believe me, I understand the purist viewpoint fully, as it would make it easier for modders in the long run. I just wish there was a decent compromise available. I love exploring games for unused content, and I understand not all of it is going to actually work, and most of it was cut for a reason. Doesn't mean I don't find it interesting.
There is a wiki that detailed and listed unused content found in games, from NES to PC...
http://tcrf.net/The_Cutting_Room_Floor
I keep meaning to add some material I found in Max Panye to it (unused music and recorded dialog).
Perhaps we should start an entry for Bloodlines?
I'm with Tessera, the only thing that should be in a patch, is bug fixes and repairs. As far as some of the discarded material
that Troika cut out, being put in to the game, that should be left to the modding community and never be put into a patch.
Now finding mods for Bloodlines is pretty easy, just go to filefront or moddb, they both have quite a few mods, including
the eye mod that Tess mentioned earlier, as well as some re-skins of both NPC's and PC's. Not all are going to be compatible
with the TPG, because they were built using a different (cough) patch.
You know, all this back and forth got me to thinking (a dangerous thing usually, especially at 4am and somewhat tipsy).
From what i gathered by browsing the PV, STEAM and Wiki pages, there are a lot of wesp5 groupies out there, but there are also quite a few that aren't pleased with the UP.
That can be seen by the simple fact that wesp5 released a "basic" version of the UP.
Going by that we could argue that there are three ideology in the Bloodlines community.
#1 Purists
Those that understand the concept and agree that a patch is a patch and a mod is a mod. Those that prefer staying as true as possible to the vision, atmosphere and mood of the original development team.
#2 Wespists(tm)
Those that don't either care about the above, don't know any better or are simply put, sheeple.
#3 Fencists
Then there are folks like Prisoner416 here. That would like to be part of group #1 but (for some reason) see some redeeming value in some of the things that group #2 did.
Unfortunately for group #3, pretty much all of the mods and mod-makers out there use group #2's "work" for whichever reason, real or imaginary.
And heres the dangerous part.
"What if" some of these changes from group #2 were made, as mods, based on the TPG? (if thats even possible? Not to mention another bag of worm in itself.)
How many of group #3 (and even group #2) would give the TPG a real try and promptly realize/"wakeup" to the fact that group #2 has been leading them by the nose all these years?
Suggested reading -- posted well over a year ago, by yours truly:
http://www.tessmage.com/forum/index.php/topic,56888.msg69224.html#msg69224
I have done my part. The rest is up to all of you.
Quote from: Prisoner416 on December 14, 2011, 11:10:46 PM
Well, to be honest, I am 24, and it would be a bit more awkward for them. The blowjobs were cut out, weren't they? Even with the unofficial patch, they are normally in alleys I can avoid.
If you are 24, then I will assume that your parents are in their 40's and 50's. Would that be correct..? If so, then they both grew up during the 1960's -- 1970's, the era of the so-called "sexual revolution" in America. The 1970's in particular were a very permissive decade... much more so than today, even. I therefore find it hard to imagine that your parents would feel even a teensy bit offended by the harmless sight of a female nipple. In fact, the entire concept is rather laughable. Are you sure that it isn't YOU who are having a problem with it..? :P
In any case, the texture in question appears -only- when you examine the Guy Magazine video tape in you inventory. And it is also VERY small, in relation to the rest of your screen. So if you are still frightened by the sight of a pretty girl wearing a topless bathing suit, then you could simply avoid examining that item during gameplay. Problem solved... and that way, your mom won't have a heart attack.
Frankly, I find it rather surprising that we are even having a conversation like this, especially in the year 2011. ::)
Quote from: Tessera on December 15, 2011, 04:09:34 AM
Suggested reading -- posted well over a year ago, by yours truly:
http://www.tessmage.com/forum/index.php/topic,56888.msg69224.html#msg69224
I have done my part. The rest is up to all of you.
Sorry, missed that.
Never had any issues installing your stuff so haven't looked too closely at the "Tech Support" sub-forum.
I haven't delved that deep into the forums, not done reading "General Topics" yet. :-[
Quote from: Ratcatcher on December 15, 2011, 04:38:01 AMSorry, missed that.
Never had any issues installing your stuff so haven't looked too closely at the "Tech Support" sub-forum.
No problem. I figured other people may have missed reading that topic also... hence the link. 8)
Quote from: Ratcatcher on December 15, 2011, 02:09:34 AM
You know, all this back and forth got me to thinking (a dangerous thing usually, especially at 4am and somewhat tipsy).
From what i gathered by browsing the PV, STEAM and Wiki pages, there are a lot of wesp5 groupies out there, but there are also quite a few that aren't pleased with the UP.
That can be seen by the simple fact that wesp5 released a "basic" version of the UP.
Going by that we could argue that there are three ideology in the Bloodlines community.
#1 Purists
Those that understand the concept and agree that a patch is a patch and a mod is a mod. Those that prefer staying as true as possible to the vision, atmosphere and mood of the original development team.
#2 Wespists(tm)
Those that don't either care about the above, don't know any better or are simply put, sheeple.
#3 Fencists
Then there are folks like Prisoner416 here. That would like to be part of group #1 but (for some reason) see some redeeming value in some of the things that group #2 did.
Unfortunately for group #3, pretty much all of the mods and mod-makers out there use group #2's "work" for whichever reason, real or imaginary.
And heres the dangerous part.
"What if" some of these changes from group #2 were made, as mods, based on the TPG? (if thats even possible? Not to mention another bag of worm in itself.)
How many of group #3 (and even group #2) would give the TPG a real try and promptly realize/"wakeup" to the fact that group #2 has been leading them by the nose all these years?
Exactly. Patches should be patches, not mods or upgrades or simply made up content.
Just because I like looking at and examining deleted content doesn't mean it should all be patched back into the game.
In a perfect world, I would be be able to pick and choose what got... reinserted? I'll use that instead of restored.
If there isn't enough info to accurately put them back in, you shouldn't be fucking around with them.
My view is sort of like with movies with deleted scenes. Sometimes, the parts were cut because they were trash. However, sometimes they were just cut for time, and actually make the film better.
If there were mods out there to restore some of these things like dialog hooks, I would switch over as soon as possible.
Also, with mods, I have the benefit of being able to experiment with them, view/hear the removed content, and then... delete it and go back to a pure game.
To be honest, I hesitated even posting on these boards because of the... well, some of the more flameful posts.
If we really want to bridge the community, it doesn't help for people to see a bunch of posts referring to Krauts and Nazis... I think we're above that level. If we want to get the community on our side, we have to go above that and be the better side.
Quote from: Prisoner416 on December 15, 2011, 11:25:32 AM
My view is sort of like with movies with deleted scenes. Sometimes, the parts were cut because they were trash. However, sometimes they were just cut for time, and actually make the film better.
Except that in a roleplaying computer game, time is not a factor. So then, what other reason remains..?
Answer: those segments were cut because they degraded the continuity, balance and/or focus of the game.
As for my name-calling against Wesp, I make no apologies. He has called me far worse, on other boards.
http://tcrf.net/Vampire:_The_Masquerade_-_Bloodlines
We should work on expanding this article.
I guess you didn't hear about the Wikipedia fiasco a couple of years ago.
The article about Bloodlines in the Wikipedia used to contain a description of the True Patch, along with information on how to obtain it. Wesp and his acolytes felt very threatened by the competition, however, and so together (and entirely at Wesp's direction), they launched upon a slimy campaign to perform repeated and malicious edits against the True Patch within that article. This eventually led to a full-blown war between Wesp and myself over on the Wikipedia site. The end result was that all information about the True Patch was deleted from the Bloodlines article, after their staff privately informed me that they didn't wish to provide information and links concerning "a porn site." They were referring to THIS site, of course. Obviously, this is not a porn site... but the Wikipedia people simply used that as a loophole, in order to side with the perceived status quo. That entire ordeal was one of the most revolting displays that I have ever seen from a site which postures itself as being "informative."
Just more proof that those user-editable Wiki sites are absolutely worthless, so far as being reliable sources of information.
Hence you can understand why I am rather hesitant to get back into another mess like that. The minute we start adding True Patch info to the site that you have linked, you can bet your ass that Wesp and his goons will show up ten minutes later and begin sabotaging those entries. They have done this sort of underhanded bullshit quite a few times in the past. And if they have done it before, then they will almost certainly do it again. Those assholes have absolutely no sense of ethics whatsoever, as they have proven time and time again.
If people are truly interested in Bloodlines, then sooner or later they are bound to stumble upon the True Patch. Word-of-mouth is something that neither Wesp nor his idiotic followers can interfere with. And so far, word-of-mouth has been good enough to lure thousands of Bloodlines players over to the True Patch... and away from Wesp and his amateurish collection of worthless garbage.
Didn't the White Wolf Wiki have the TPG info on it not that long ago?
edit: Yep, the TPG info was removed March 24, 2011, wonder who would've done such a thing...
edit2:[/sarcasm]
Who did it..? Well, who do you think..?
The White Wolf Wiki -used to say- that there were two lines of fan-made patches. One which did nothing except fix bugs and restore a limited amount of content (ours), and another which makes several changes to the items, quests and gameplay (Wesp's).
And now you say that the True Patch info has been sabotaged..? Well gee, isn't that a surprise. ::)
The only reason that Wesp does this shit is because he feels threatened somehow by the existence of the True Patch. So let's play dime store psychologist for a moment. Do people feel threatened if they are secure about themselves and the superiority... either real or imagined... of whatever it is that we're talking about..?
No, of course they don't. So then, why would Wesp feel so threatened by the True Patch as to run around sabotaging Wiki entries, invading True Patch threads on numerous other boards, and generally behaving like a childish and dictatorial little scumbag..?
The only logical answer is: because Wesp knows that there is only one, TRUE Bloodlines patch on the web... and it's ours. The True Patch. That is why Wesp feels threatened... and that is why he consistently behaves in such a deceitful, underhanded and disgusting manner.
On our end, we have never, ever done any of those things to any of Wesp's articles or forum posts. Not once -- not ever. Mainly because we are mature adults... and also, because we are not the ones who feel threatened. Why should we be..? We have the best Bloodlines patch on the web. In fact, it is accurate to say that we have the ONLY Bloodlines patch on the web, because none of Wesp's work qualifies as a patch. It is in fact a big, silly mod that does more to undermine the game than to help it.
And he knows it. But at this late stage, Wesp has effectively painted himself into a corner. Hence his behavior.
Quote from: Tessera on December 15, 2011, 01:06:26 PM
I guess you didn't hear about the Wikipedia fiasco a couple of years ago.
The article about Bloodlines in the Wikipedia used to contain a description of the True Patch, along with information on how to obtain it. Wesp and his acolytes felt very threatened by the competition, however, and so together (and entirely at Wesp's direction), they launched upon a slimy campaign to perform repeated and malicious edits against the True Patch within that article. This eventually led to a full-blown war between Wesp and myself over on the Wikipedia site. The end result was that all information about the True Patch was deleted from the Bloodlines article, after their staff privately informed me that they didn't wish to provide information and links concerning "a porn site." They were referring to THIS site, of course. Obviously, this is not a porn site... but the Wikipedia people simply used that as a loophole, in order to side with the perceived status quo. That entire ordeal was one of the most revolting displays that I have ever seen from a site which postures itself as being "informative."
Just more proof that those user-editable Wiki sites are absolutely worthless, so far as being reliable sources of information.
Hence you can understand why I am rather hesitant to get back into another mess like that. The minute we start adding True Patch info to the site that you have linked, you can bet your ass that Wesp and his goons will show up ten minutes later and begin sabotaging those entries. They have done this sort of underhanded bullshit quite a few times in the past. And if they have done it before, then they will almost certainly do it again. Those assholes have absolutely no sense of ethics whatsoever, as they have proven time and time again.
If people are truly interested in Bloodlines, then sooner or later they are bound to stumble upon the True Patch. Word-of-mouth is something that neither Wesp nor his idiotic followers can interfere with. And so far, word-of-mouth has been good enough to lure thousands of Bloodlines players over to the True Patch... and away from Wesp and his amateurish collection of worthless garbage.
I wasn't talking about adding True Patch info, I was talking about adding information and details regarding removed content or leftover code.
Why..? I'm not sure that I understand why anyone would be interested.
I suppose it might be interesting for the sake of trivia. //shrug
But anyway, we already have most of that info posted right here on this site.
If anyone is interested in that sort of stuff, then they can find it here.
Quote from: Prisoner416 on December 15, 2011, 02:51:39 PM
I wasn't talking about adding True Patch info, I was talking about adding information and details regarding removed content or leftover code.
Sorry about this, but to be honest, I don't think it would be a good idea. The Wesp groupies would just
come in and change everything to suit their own means and then pat Wesp on the back even more.
As far as I am concerned any left over material still on the disks should be left for the modding
community to play with, not someone claiming to patch the game and then calling it restoration. Only
the original dev team or a member of that team can call anything added to a game a restoration, not
the modding community.
What tools are best to browse audio and other things from the game?
The best would be the multi-purpose tool that is included within the TPG package:
Turvy's "Quick And Dirty Bloodlines Tools," or "VPK Tool" for short. It will allow you
to extract files from the game's compressed VPK archives, amongst other things.
Be sure to make a backup copy of your game before you start messing with it.
Version 3.9a, yes? I don't plan to change anything, I just want to listen to some of the audio for things that I might have missed or never made it into the game.
I love finding hidden bits of abandoned code.
There are quite a few audio files that never got used in VTMB. Mostly what are referred to as "float" lines... little bits and snippets of generic NPC dialogue.
I resurrected some of those snippets (about a dozen or so) within my VTMB Mega-Mod, including a few for Jeanette and V.V. that were cut from the default game.
Yes, Wesp added a lot of those back in in his Plus version, but he made a few errors.
For one, triggering them can easily stop a playing dialog so you miss what was said before.
Two, they are very easy to call, and do make the characters too "chatty", making almost all characters prone to talk to themselves at times.
The funniest one was after I told the professor I would save him, and he thanked me, I went close to him and it triggered a float and made him say, "Why are you doing this? HELLLLP! Can anyone hear me?!".
There is one change I really like in Wesp's patch though, and wanted your opinion of it.
When you reunite E and Lily, he's added an option to return Lily's belongings to her.
This doesn't hurt gameplay in itself. In fact, it makes more sense then keeping her stuff forever, which has no value.
It always bugged me that I kept them when she was right there.
Those float lines were cut from the game by Troika for a reason. This is yet another case of Wesp referring to something idiotic that he did as a "restoration," when in fact those things were never supposed to be there in the first place. Those are not unfinished audio files... they are CUT audio files. Cut from the final version of Bloodlines by design.
I once did an experiment, where I enabled all of the unused float lines for most of the NPC's. And then, when I did a test run through the game, I quickly discovered why Troika had decided to disable most of them:
Because the resulting non-stop NPC chatter utterly ruins the mood of the game. As a roleplaying experience, Bloodlines works best if everything is deep, dark and QUIET most of the time. That's what sets up the atmosphere... the feeling that we are detached and outcast and on our own in the world. The game world is far more spooky and moody in general, if most of the time the people we encounter simply walk right past us without saying a word.
This is why Troika disabled all of that unnecessary float dialogue. So for Wesp to come along with his typical "more is always better" approach was, in my considered opinion, a wretched mistake on his part. One of many such mistakes. But we knew that.
I was familiar with that, but you bypassed my other question.
Quote from: Prisoner416 on December 22, 2011, 04:22:48 PM
...you bypassed my other question.
Not on purpose, I assure you. What was your other question..?
Quote from: Prisoner416 on December 22, 2011, 01:01:01 PM
There is one change I really like in Wesp's patch though, and wanted your opinion of it.
When you reunite E and Lily, he's added an option to return Lily's belongings to her.
This doesn't hurt gameplay in itself. In fact, it makes more sense then keeping her stuff forever, which has no value.
It always bugged me that I kept them when she was right there.
I'm thinking he means this.
I think it's a mod. And if you like such mods, then I think it's fine.
But it's an arbitrary and unnecessary change, hence it doesn't belong in a patch.
I wish I could just ditch it.
(Note: assume everything I mention refers to the plus version)
I do like the additions he made to the poster quest. Wish that was a available as a mod, since it hardly affects gameplay.
But he has this bad habit of messing around with things... like adding music to the Nosferatu living areas.
It was cool at first, then I realized... this is killing the mood, covering up the whispers, the feeling of... SOLITUDE.
There's a guard in the Empire Hotel Lobby now that will automatically attack Nosferatu.
I've made patches for games before that actually had content deleted, mainly imports that had violent bits disabled.
There's a large difference between reinserting disabled content and adding DELETED content back in that was meant to be removed.
By the way, is there a mod or method to turn down background music in the game, like the Asylum music? It's often hard for me to hear dialog over the music.
... using packfile explorer 3.09 to check out the audio.
Some good deleted stuff in here. Wall_break.wav is... interesting.
(Edit. The amount of sheer unused material in here is amazing, along with some interesting filenames. I'll have to document the better ones.))
Quote from: Prisoner416 on December 25, 2011, 05:17:13 PM
I wish I could just ditch it.
You can -- by re-installing Bloodlines and then installing the TPG, thus utterly removing all traces of Wesp and his loathsome meddling. :P
Quote
By the way, is there a mod or method to turn down background music in the game, like the Asylum music? It's often hard for me to hear dialog over the music.
It is totally possible, yes... although the method would depend upon which area of the game we are talking about.
In some areas, the volume level of various background sounds (including music in some cases) is controlled via a simple sound scheme file, which can be edited using any standard text editor.
But in other areas, the volume levels of certain sounds and music are controlled directly by entities encoded within the actual map files. For example, you mentioned the music inside the Asylum club. That particular music is loaded as a map entity and is controlled directly from there.
To illustrate what I am referring to, here is what the actual map entity looks like for the Asylum music:
{
"classname" "ambient_generic"
"targetname" "music"
"message" "Music/Licenced/05. Chiasm - Isolated.mp3"
"health" "8"
"preset" "0"
"volstart" "0"
"fadein" "5"
"fadeout" "5"
"pitch" "100"
"pitchstart" "100"
"spinup" "0"
"spindown" "0"
"lfotype" "0"
"lforate" "0"
"lfomodpitch" "0"
"lfomodvol" "0"
"cspinup" "0"
"radius" "1000"
"spawnflags" "1"
"sound_event_level" "2"
"flag_force_looping" "1"
"flag_no_sfx" "1"
"origin" "-921.205 -85.3192 -232"
}
But wait... it gets even more complicated. As we move from place to place inside the Asylum map, the volume level of the club music is faded up or down... depending upon where we are. If we ride the elevator up to the top floor, then the music level fades a bit. And if we then enter Therese's office, it fades even more. And when we take the elevator back downstairs, it rises back up to its default volume level. This fading up and down is likewise controlled directly by special map entities known as "triggers."
Here is an example of one of the Asylum map triggers, which is responsible for restoring the default volume level of the club music:
{
"model" "*35"
"classname" "trigger_multiple"
"wait" "1"
"spawnflags" "1"
"origin" "-1200 508 -233"
"OnStartTouch" "music,Volume,8,0,-1,,"
}
That particular trigger is set up so that it will restore the music volume by ramping it up over the course of 8 seconds ("OnStartTouch" "music,Volume,8,0,-1,,"). I haven't actually gone over to the map to check on its exact location, but at first glance, it looks like a trigger which has been set to fire whenever we are taking the elevator back down to the main hall. Just an educated guess.
It may be possible to create a new sound scheme entry for the Asylum club, which could possibly set a new maximum default level for the main music. I haven't ever bothered to try it, but it seems logical to me that the engine should accept it... if it were coded properly. At present, there is no such entry within the default sound scheme file for the Asylum main hall, which means that Troika wanted that particular music to play at full volume. It is, after all, a modern night club... and in a typical night club, the music is usually quite LOUD.
There is another (and much simpler) way that you could do it, however. You could simply load the audio file in question into an audio editor (eg: Sony SoundForge) and then decrease its overall volume level that way. The only tricky part to doing it that way is that the modified audio file MUST be saved in the exact same format as the original version. Also, it must NOT have any metadata saved within the file header (or else the game engine will crash). The VTMB engine expects nothing except simple, standard MP3 and WAV audio files... either 1 or 2 channels... with absolutely nothing added to their file headers (except for occasional sound looping data where appropriate).
Incidentally, this is in fact why I tell people to -never- play any of VTMB's audio files using Windows Media Player. The reason is because WMP has a nasty tendency to add its own metadata to the file headers of the various files that it opens and plays. It does this without informing the user that it has done so. Why it does something so sinister is a question that only Microsoft can answer.
This has been a rather lengthy reply, but I try to be reasonably complete whenever I am asked about mods. The bottom line is that you can indeed change the volume levels to anything that you wish, but it may involve making numerous map edits in some cases. And unless you are familiar with the way that the Source maps are constructed in Bloodlines, I do not recommend messing around with them. For a non-modder such as yourself, the easiest and best solution would probably be to alter the audio files directly, in an appropriate sound editor. I strongly suggest making backup copies beforehand, just in case you happen to make any mistakes.
Quote from: Prisoner416 on December 25, 2011, 06:51:10 PM
(Edit. The amount of sheer unused material in here is amazing, along with some interesting filenames. I'll have to document the better ones.))
It is really no different than the amount of material which ends up on the cutting room floor, during the editing of a typical motion picture. Troika deliberately cut great globs of stuff from the final version of Bloodlines and in most cases, I agree with their reasons for doing so.
Quote from: Prisoner416 on December 25, 2011, 06:51:10 PM
Some good deleted stuff in here. Wall_break.wav is... interesting.
It was unused because Troika replaced it later on, with a better sound effect: "smashthrough_wall.wav"
As I have said -- most of those things were left unused for a reason. But try telling that to Wesp. He simply doesn't get it. ::)
No, the wall-break sound is an "Oh Yeah!" kool-aid man effect.
There's also some blooper cuts kept in, and some interesting bits, like effects for a "shovel-head" character.
Having trouble finding the ACTUAL dialog in the game though, like the normal conversations with Damsel and others. All I can seem to find is normal floats and music.
Quote from: Prisoner416 on December 25, 2011, 08:20:44 PM
Having trouble finding the ACTUAL dialog in the game though, like the normal conversations with Damsel and others.
VTMB\Vampire\sound\character\dlg
The sub-folders for the various character dialogues are located there.
Quote from: Tessera on December 25, 2011, 08:37:38 PM
Quote from: Prisoner416 on December 25, 2011, 08:20:44 PM
Having trouble finding the ACTUAL dialog in the game though, like the normal conversations with Damsel and others.
VTMB\Vampire\sound\character\dlg
The sub-folders for the various character dialogues are located there.
Ah, okay, I'm just stupid then, I was looking in the pack files.
No, not necessarily stupid on your part. In many cases, the VPK files will need to be decompressed, before certain folders and sub-folders are revealed.
My suggestion would be to make copies of all of the VPK's in some neutral location on your hard drive, and then decompress them all if you wish to browse their contents. But whatever you do... do NOT decompress them directly within your VTMB installation. Doing so could possibly overwrite various patch files and make the game un-playable.
...I love a lot of the cut Damsel dialog. Comparing the Prince to Nixon and a bunch of other political bits.
I did find it interesting she has a line "I'll send you an e-mail"... interesting.
Is there a good mirror for the gold patch? For some reason mine errors out at 99% download.
All you need to do is check the main page, there are 2 separate download locations.
http://www.filefront.com/17202358/True_Patch_Gold_FINAL.rar/ and
http://www.sailmaker.co.uk/vtmb/
You should always check the main page of a site, before hitting the forums, to see if there are any updates.
Quote from: Schu on January 05, 2012, 05:03:58 PM
All you need to do is check the main page, there are 2 separate download locations.
http://www.filefront.com/17202358/True_Patch_Gold_FINAL.rar/ and
http://www.sailmaker.co.uk/vtmb/
You should always check the main page of a site, before hitting the forums, to see if there are any updates.
Okay, so it's just Filefront being a dick as usual, then.
Running the True Patch now, miss a few things like giving Lily her items back and such. Overall, however, it's worth it.
Quote from: Prisoner416 on January 14, 2012, 10:02:03 PM
Okay, so it's just Filefront being a dick as usual, then.
Glad to hear you got everything working OK.
QuoteRunning the True Patch now, miss a few things like giving Lily her items back and such. Overall, however, it's worth it.
Too be honest, I think Troika left the picture of Lilly and her diary in your inventory, for a remembrance of you doing
something to help the less fortunate. It is a minor thing, but it could be modded in. I'll take a look if others show some
interest, because I'm not going to create a mod just for one person. Besides that it doesn't belong in a patch and it
isn't in the original files, it's just something Wesp made up, probably because the PV crowd asked for it.
Sorry if I stepped on your toes there Tessera.
Without more facts, it is impossible to determine with certainty whether we end up keeping those items by design, or whether it is simply due to a missing script entry. Convincing arguments could be made either way.
With most quests, extraneous items automatically disappear from our inventory, once the related quests have been completed. But not always. Lily's quest would be one example in which the quest items remain after completion. The sewer key card from Act 3 would be another such example. And there are a few others.
Since the main goal of the True Patch is to fix LEGITIMATE bugs, and since there is no clear indication that these "leftover items" constitute a legitimate bug, I was forced to abide by our philosophy of "if it ain't broke, then don't fix it." Hence, the True Patch makes no changes to the related scripts in these cases. There is no compelling reason to do so.
Conclusion: as I have said many times around here, if the player desires what must be referred to as arbitrary changes in Bloodlines, then such changes belong in a mod -- not in a patch.
:police:
As for me personally, I have always considered those leftover items to be "keepsakes," as Schu has suggested. I just toss them into our desk drawer in Santa Monica, or into our foot locker in the Downtown haven, or stash them in the refrigerator... etc.
Keep in mind I wasn't suggesting you add it to your patch. Pretty much the only things I like are really minor, like the eyes (which I think someone said are part of another mod), the Skeltor/Damsel location, and some of the gun names.
I can easily do without these mods though. I was wondering how hard it would be to swap around icons or graphics. I was considering making a more plain version for the Jock Shot tape, simply the tape with a label on it.
Quote from: Prisoner416 on January 15, 2012, 08:19:03 PMI was wondering how hard it would be to swap around icons or graphics. I was considering making a more plain version for the Jock Shot tape, simply the tape with a label on it.
Well first of all, you can't just "swap around" the textures in a video game. Each texture corresponds to a specific 3-D model, and vice versa.
If you want to create some new textures as alternatives to the default versions, then you will need to learn how to create and/or modify Bloodlines textures. You can find the basic info on how to do such things up in the Mods section of this board.
Not recommended for beginners.
I know you're going to hate this, but I'll ask anyway.
The Wesp mod has a texture for the Jock Shot tape, it's simply a VHS tape with the paper sticker label, reading "Jock Shot".
Is it possible to extract textures from his otherwise lackluster mod, and place them into a version fixed with your patch?
I personally like the K.I.S.S. principle when it comes to fixing things, and I prefer the simple label in game.
The last thing in this world that I am going to do is advise people to use ANYTHING from Wesp's crappy mod.
You are free to do as you please. But ethically speaking, I can't help you with something like that.
My advice is to simply leave it alone. The Jock Shot tape looks fine the way it is.
We are living in the year 2012. But if breasts frighten you for some inexplicable reason, then I suggest
that you play some other game besides Bloodlines. It is an adult game and it features nudity. Period.
That is my final word on the subject, as I have already given this issue more than enough attention.
Are there any comparison screenshots for the Hi-Resolution NPC Pack #1? Alos, a link to the eye patch would be nice. Finally purged my install, reinstalled, and am applying the True Patch now.
Sorry, but we don't have a link. Try using Google.
Quote from: Tessera on January 29, 2012, 07:16:28 PM
Sorry, but we don't have a link. Try using Google.
Found comparisons for everything but Damsel (which was disappointing since she's my favorite, but I guess I'll have to install to see it). Looks intriguing, might skip over the Yukie skin but everything else seems to be top shelf.
Is the following the proper eye mod? There are a few of them and I want to make sure I have the right one.
http://www.moddb.com/games/vampire-the-masquerade-bloodlines/addons/eye-replacer
Yeah that looks like the right one.
Thank you for this patch, and for your commitment to keeping it available in the most comprehensive and updated form possible. However, I do have a question about "True_Patch_Gold_FINAL_with_Hotfix7": In the readme for the Hi-res NPCs pack 1, in the Extras / Optional Mods section, you mention "The characters included in this package are: Prince LaCroix, Damsel, Yukie, Mercurio and the Gargoyle. " I've been looking at the files and can't find any pertaining to Yukie. Is the readme wrong, are the files for her missing/moved elsewhere, or am I just looking at it wrong?
The ReadMe file is obsolete. I removed Yukie's custom skin from the TPG "Extras" package awhile back and forgot to update the readme accordingly.
Yukie's custom skin was moved over to being exclusive to my VTMB Mega-Mod, about a year or so ago.
Quote from: Tessera on November 01, 2012, 05:25:51 PM
The ReadMe file is obsolete. I removed Yukie's custom skin from the TPG "Extras" package awhile back and forgot to update the readme accordingly.
Yukie's custom skin was moved over to being exclusive to my VTMB Mega-Mod, about a year or so ago.
Ok. Thanks for the reply.
...
Quote from: Tessera on December 25, 2011, 07:31:05 PM
It is really no different than the amount of material which ends up on the cutting room floor, during the editing of a typical motion picture. Troika deliberately cut great globs of stuff from the final version of Bloodlines and in most cases, I agree with their reasons for doing so.
How do you know their reasons?
Quote from: ccb on April 19, 2014, 08:34:50 AM
How do you know their reasons?
(1) I am a highly intelligent man, and I have been involved with computers
and gaming for longer than most of you have been alive.
(2) Also, I asked them. ;)