Tessera Dissects Wesp's VTMB Mods - POINT by POINT

[Tessera]

Now that I've had some sleep and I have a few moments, I'm going to address each and every one of Wesp's changes that are listed in his patch notes. Many thanks to Acrimonious, for also listing them in another thread. I wanted to give my full rebuttal to its own thread, as I may decide to link to it on other boards.

I'm assuming that all of these are from his latest version 3.3 release..?

Awarded xp when releasing Julius
A very bad change that destroys the intention by Troika that the player make a value judgement and a moral choice.

Added humanity loss for killing innocents in several combat areas.
There are no such things as "innocents" in combat areas. That rule was made very clear by Troika. Such unintentional deaths are considered to be casualties of war. Hey... shit happens. Wesp is flying in the face of reality here.

Modified bad discipline effects for non humans, thanks to Populism.
Sounds like he wants vamp disciplines to do more harm to other vamps. That's a mistake... vamps have greater willpower and a stronger constitution than normal humans, hence their greater resistance to discs. On the face of it, this seems to be another of Wesp's ez-mode bastardizations of Troika's rules.

Gave Colt to Boris.
Why..? Was he lonely..? Or you just wanted a free mega-gun in act 2, instead of waiting to find one legitimately in act 3..? This is frivolous and unnecessary and certainly not a bug fix by any stretch of the imagination. It's another ez-mode "fix" for impatient players who seek to play VTMB as if it were an FPS game, which it clearly is not.

Made Imalia and Mitnick turn better
Sometimes, if you don't face them in the right spot, they both turn to face a default direction and they aren't facing you when they speak. It's minor, but sure -- it would be nice if it was fixed. No big whoop.

Unbarred Ming's Temple door
Simply push the bar with your body until it's out of the way, just as you would in real life. The bar MUST remain in that scene, as it adds an extra source of tension to the entire run through the temple. This is a roleplaying concern... and Wesp obviously doesn't relate to roleplaying very well. He and his ilk just want free, overpowered boom sticks and a quick and easy ride to the endgame.

Turned character screens music off and lowered Venus' cut to $125.
Whattya want... egg in yer suds..?! The music is fine and Venus gives us 250 bucks every three days. Why do we need to reduce her cut..? Greed..? This is silly, greedy, self-serving and totally unnecessary. It's also an insult to the Venus character.

Reduced zombie spawning frequency in Hollywood Cemetary.
Yah... because guns were never meant by Troika to be super-uber in this game and that scene is proof of how ineffective they are against undeads. So, along comes Wesp to make it easier for the boom stick crowd. I have a better idea: try using brains over brawn for a change, Wesp. That's what being a good vamp is all about.

Granted humanity for persuading Therese and Jeanette to make peace.
A free Humanity gain..? Why..? For helping a Malkavian vampiress, who threatens to kill us no less than three times... including AFTER we've "saved" her..? How do we get humanity for aiding an INCURABLY  PSYCHOTIC, INHUMAN VAMPIRE..? That's senseless, sorry.

Lowered baseball bat, tire iron and new katana skill requirements.
More of Wesp's ez-mode crappola, for unskilled beginners who can't seem to understand that you have a brain, too. Start using it and stop trying to bash your way through the world with the aid of freebies. Or, just go play another game, because this one obviously isn't intended for such players.

Made Trip sell crossbows
Great... so now, Trip sells a weapon in act 1 that we don't even see (or need) until act 3. More ez-mode bullshit from Wesp and his caravan of newbie followers. This one is VERY BAD -- but don't try to tell that to Wesp. He hates it when you try to take his boom sticks away.

Tseng will offer the SPAS directly and the flaming crossbow later.
WTF..?! Why, so you can bypass more roleplaying content..? Try being nice to Mercurio... you'll get your SPAS from him, as per Troika's intentions. As for the crossbow, you're supposed to find one, not get it from Tseng. This is WAAAAY OVERPOWERED, as are so many of Wesp's "enhancements" for the FPS crowd.

Made Larry's quest independent of buying
This makes absolutely no sense from a roleplaying perspective. Initially, Larry doesn't know you from a hole in the ground. It isn't until after he sees what you've been buying from him that he sizes you up as a mercenary. Wesp... learn to roleplay, dude... this is a ROLEPLAYING game, not a free handout for eternal ultra-n00bs. Please get with the program and stop making it easy for lazy players to bypass content.

Added Julius killed lines
I have no idea what this means. Is there voice acting for it..? Then it may have been intended and unfinished. If not, then it's frivolous and should be removed.

Removed another warehouse spawning
More ez-mode changes from Wesp, for the legions of the unskilled. You don't even need to fight in that warehouse... try using the ceiling beams to sneak over to the office, if the fights are too hard for you. Once again: LEARN TO USE YOUR HEADS IN A ROLEPLAYING GAME.

Made all enemies drop their weapon when killed
More ez-mode crap. This change is totally unnecessary, but Wesp obviously wants everyone to get rich quick. That makes sense for Wesp, because the unskilled players that his "patch" caters to are probably gonna need a LOT of Bloodpacks. The rest of us who actually know how to play properly don't need this at all.

Lowered .38 ammo price and time when crossbow bolts are available.
More ez-mode crap for the FPS crowd. Repeat after me: VTMB IS NOT A FIRST-PERSON SHOOTER GAME.
 
Added humanity loss for sending Copper after Nines, LaCroix, or the President
That scene was intended to be comic relief and is a roleplaying perk ONLY. There is no reason whatsoever to destroy that moment with the distraction of Humanity loss. The only thing that Troika wanted you to do in that scene is LAUGH. Leave it the hell alone, it's FINE and your change SABOTAGES THE HUMOR.

Removed respawning warehouse thugs
More ez-mode crap. Learn to play and this ceases to be an issue -- not only in the warehouse, but throughout the entire game. Learn to Obfuscate, mmm 'k..?

Cops now have Glocks and dead enemies will drop somewhat more ammo.
L.A.P.D. beat cops use whatever are prescribed as "standard issue" weapons. I've never heard of them using Glocks, so the only reason Wesp changed this was to let you get a free Glock at a far earlier stage of the game than you would normally encounter one. This is yet more ez-mode crap from Wesp for the FPS'ers who JUST DO NOT GET IT about VTMB.

Made paying angered Vandal easier
All I need to see is the word "easier" in Wesp's notes and I start laughing again. 'Nuff said on that one.

Made Thistle improve Dodge only.
Why..? Was this broken..? Leave it alone, or go argue with Troika. You've destroyed their intentions.

Removed the zoom mode of the 'Jamie Sue' and raised damage instead.
Raised damage..? Why..? Once again: MORE EZ-MODE CRAPPOLA FOR FPS-OBSSESSED  NEWBIES. Go play a different game. In this game, "RPG" stands for roleplaying game -- not "rocket propelled grenade."

Moved computers and firearms books from Trip to clinic and Carson.
Why..? To make it easier again..? So you don't have to buy them..? Get a grip, please and leave Troika's game alone. Or, go write your own game, Wesp -- but in this one, the rules of the gameworld are clear.

Added missing xp for plague quest
Prove to me that this XP was actually "missing," instead of dependent upon previous actions and affiliations and I'll grant you this one. I think you're just trying to bypass content, which is a serious no-no.

Made Tseng not offer blood as he doesn't even know about vampires.
Did you sit down with Tseng and ask him about vamps, Wesp..? He lives right under the noses of the Kuei-Jin and he has eyes and ears. Furthermore, he could be a ghoul himself, for all you know. Tseng's character is largely a mystery, so he could know all sorts of hidden information. The only thing you know for sure about Tseng is that he's ex-Red Army and that he likes spicy bean curd.

Venus will now give you a constant $250 payment when you visit her.
WHY..?! More ez-mode crappola from Wesp,  for players who don't enjoy roleplaying and who have next to zero patience with RPG's. Go play something else... your greed is getting over-the-top now. The whole point of the payment schedule is to teach you not to be a pest.

Made Mitnick mail his reward already after the first schrecknet hub.
More ez-mode nonsense for unskilled and impatient players, who don't want to actually finish the entire quest chain. This is BAD, BAD, BAD and should not be tolerated by any serious player of VTMB.

Raised chances for Jeanette and Therese peace and Jeanette winning.
Yah... because Wesp wants every kid on the block to have a chance to sleep with Jeanette. This is also flying straight into the face of the roleplaying demands, concerning the Voerman sisters, that were clearly set forth by Troika.

Lowered Persuasion requirements for all Giovannis to the same value
Well, of course you did..!!! Because lord knows, all of them are exactly the same in terms of willpower. Nevermind that they're all of different ages and experience levels. This is even more arbitrary, frivolous and ez-mode garbage from Wesp's ill-considered little VTMB hack job.

Made it possible for all clans to get the secret info from Johansen.
Of course, because as we all know, every clan is exactly the same and none of them have any speial abilities of their own. Hey... can you make my Malk an expert with Blood Boil, whilst yer at it..? She'd really love to have that, too. THIS IS BAD, Wesp... you've destroyed yet another aspect of the game's replayability value with this one.

You will receive a point of humanity for warning Wong Ho about Ming.
This is idiotic, Wesp. Wong Ho worships Ming Xiao out of fear, gratitude or both. He won't believe you and Troika has made that fact quite clear, via Wong Ho's dialogue. You don't get a reward, nor should you, for something that HE IS IN DENIAL ABOUT. Just leave him to wallow in his ignorance. Roleplaying, Wesp... ROLEPLAYING. Please say that word 100 times, before your next (and inevitable) attempt to hack VTMB apart.

Gaining the Tremere haven is now independent from the quests order.
Why..? Was this broken, too..? Or you just have no patience..? Why is so much of your "patch" biased towards the Tremere clan in the first place..? LEAVE IT ALONE. The rest of us have to work for a living -- so should the Tremere.

Restored Jeanette encounter that somehow got lost in recent changes.
The encounter wasn't lost -- you just wanted extra chances to screw Jeanette. This is gratuitous and childish. Remove it.

Changed conditions and text for entering gallery with Chunk's help.
Show me that it was broken and I'll grant you this one as being legitimate. Personally, I use Dementation, Seduction or Persuasion on Chunk... because THAT's WHAT TROIKA WANTED.

Put ten 'Jamie Sue' rounds in Romero's trunk for the cemetery quest.
More ez-mode crap for the FPS crowd that does not and SHOULD NOT belong in this game. VTMB is not an FPS game. Gee, I find myself repeating that fact quite often, as I read through Wesp's notes...

Lowered humanity points gainable during the serial killer dialogue.
Why..? Was it broken..? Or is it because you'd rather just force everyone to kill him instead..?

You'll lose a point of humanity for giving the pendant to Jeanette.
Why..? You already lose humanity for slashing the paintings later on and also, if you give her the pendant, you can't "save" Tourette. Isn't that enough of a penalty..? Oh... I forgot... Wesp doesn't know how to roleplay... because if he did, then he'd understand why that's already enough of a penalty. Besides -- Wesp doesn't wanna save Tourette, he wants to endlessly screw Jeanette... so who cares if this change flies in the face of Troika's intentions.

Stopped VV sending her poster so you won't miss out on Gary's email.
This isn't a fix. The idea is that you'll get the better reward of V.V.'s favor, hence the Gary quest is no longer needed. This is once again a roleplaying choice, not a mechanics problem.

Modified Viktor/Maria Persuasion.
Why..? I'll bet Wesp can't adequately explain this one to us... not without using the word "easier" again.

Included the unused histories so that each clan has seven plus none.
Meh... who cares. Most players will stick with what Troika wanted, anyway. I have no opinions on this issue, unless you added back some Histories that Troika considered to be unbalancing. If they are unbalancing, then they should be removed.

Restored welcome lines of Bertram including xp gain
MORE XP..!! Give us MORE XP..!! That way, we don't need to play the entire game..!!! YAY..!!! Maybe one day, Wesp will understand why certain things were cut by Troika from the final release. Why not just give us free XP for learning how to cross the street, too..? We have no choice with regards to Tung, so please leave it as it was.

You will lose a humanity point when making Ash exchange his clothes.
Why..? Explain this one fully, please. And how was this a bug fix..? Oh, right -- Wesp doesn't care about that. My mistake.

Restored xp gain for entering the Gallery Noir by befriending Chunk.
This is more ez-mode crap and if Troika had wanted it to be there, then it would be there.

Made Bruno attack on lockpicking the Giovanni Mansion meeting-room.
Why..? Bruno attacks you anyway, no matter how you enter his room... unless you enter along with his bodyguard and that requires actually using your head first -- god forbid.

Removed respawning at Lotus Blossom, Temple, Venture and Giovanni's.
More of Wesp's ez-mode crappola, for unskilled guys who want to always use a gun (a la Half-Life 2) and not run out of ammo. This is garbage, period. Use your heads, some stealth and a sword next time.

Making love to Jeanette is now possible before taking on her quest.
Once again, Wesp is obssessed with screwing Jeannette, at the expense of roleplaying concerns. Work for it, stallion.

You will lose humanity for taking money for solving the Tawni quest.
Why..? You didn't kill Tawni, she killed herself. You did a job for Imalia. Let her take the humanity loss. We still deserve to get paid, as per our agreement. That's a roleplaying choice again, Wesp. Don't push it.

Lowered additional damage done by all weapons using the zoom modus.
Why..? Was it broken..? Or did it simply become overpowered after you jacked up the numbers on all of the ranged weapons..? LEAVE THE GUNS ALONE, they are NOT the best choice for a vampire in the first place. Troika made that fact quite clear in the tutorial. This is not a bug fix... this is a fix to a NEW gameplay bug that was introduced by Wesp himself, after he self-righteously messed up all of the game's weaponry.

Renamed flaming crossbow 'Kuei-jin' and lowered both bow accuracies
Why..? Betcha can't tell me. "Because I can, Tessera." Riiiiiight.

Added infos for flaming crossbow bolts and made vendors offer them.
Yet more ez-mode, shooter-obssessed, irresponsible and game-unbalancing craptastics from Wesp.

Prevented revisiting Ocean House.
Why..? Did it scare you that badly, Wesp..?

Removed bonus for stealth killing Johnny and made guards more aware.
Riiiight... because we don't want to reward the player for using their heads, instead of a gun. Wesp has already made it clear that he doesn't like having to think when he plays VTMB. Just shoot first and let god sort 'em out, right Wesp..? To hell with incentives.

Moved occult items from warrens and Tseng's to be rewards of Mr. Ox.
Frivolous and arbitrary.

Made everybody lose a humanity point for sending Milligan to Pisha.
I'll grant this one... Malks and Nossies were written before the other clans were, because they needed the most work. I think Troika hadn't decided about the other clans yet, before the game was rushed out the door. It's possible that they wanted the other clans to lose Humanity as well, so you may as well just apply it across the board -- since we really can't be positive about this one.

Swapped damage of Desert Eagle / Colt Anaconda and SPAS-15 / Ithaca.
Why..? Because you like those guns better..? I'll bet it's because they have totally cool sound effects, huh..?

Made letting Julius go free for money end up with humanity balanced.
Once again, that scene was intended to make you THINK, Wesp and then make a choice between value judgements and the self-imposed constraints of your own personal morality. Wesp has removed that fascinating element from the scene, by effectively bypassing it... thus, Wesp has utterly sabotaged it for true roleplayers.

Lessened damage for frenzy check
Why..? Was it broken..? No, it wasn't -- so leave it the fuck alone. Moving right along...

Stealing charity money will not cost humanity if you know its usage.
Wesp needs to STOP making value judgements for other players. Let them decide for themselves. Wesp's values have already proven themselves to be severely lacking in most of his other changes. LEAVE IT ALONE.

Made vendors sell SWAT rifle bullets and lowered price of fire axe.
Of course you did, Wesp..!! Why not just have them sell Howitzers and TOW missile launchers, too..? Jeezis, he's hilarious with his ez-mode gun nut crap. Who needs vamp abilities, when we have Wesp the Quartermaster on our side.. NEXT...

Removed npctemplate* files, delete those if found in /vdata/system.
Why..? Were they broken, too..? Explain this in detail Wesp, if you can. Or, is this something that you needed to do, once you realized just how much you had irreversibly broken the game for everyone, Wesp..?

Made killing Lu lower humanity.
Why..? He's a serial killer and a former hitman for the Tong. If anyone is inhuman, it's Lu. Consider killing him a public service.

Modified discipline options for Kerri
For who..? Huh..? What..?

Made crossbow bolts purchasable sooner
Yah Wesp, you've already made it clear that you intend to utterly dumb down this game for FPS fans. Please stop, okay..?

Provided baseball bat and tire iron to anyone skipping the tutorial.
Naturally. Nevermind that you can tear the beach house gang apart with your bare hands and get those weapons the honest way. You go, Wesp. Apparently, impatience is a virtue in your world.
 
Lessened MAC-10 kickback on firing with increasing firearms skills.
Why..? Was it broken, Wesp..? Or are you just so hell-bent on shooting your way through this game that you refuse to waste any ammo... due to being a gun-obssessed NUMBNUTS..? Just say no, dude.

Made Empire clerk bisexual, responding to Seduction from either sex.
Why..? He's not bisexual, so why are you making this choice for him..? So that there would be no advantage to playing as a female character..? Get over the homophobia, Wesp. Girls get perks in VTMB, just as they do in the real world... whether you like it, or not. If you want those perks, then play as a female vamp.

Relocated Pearl of Dubai
Cut from the original release by Troika. It's intriguing, but unnecessary.

Put Obfuscate and lockpicking powerups in sewer and downtown havens.
Why..? So you don't have to spend any points there..? Stop HOMOGENIZING the game for the legions of the great unwashed, Wesp.

Granted occult hacking powerup as reward for doing Mitnick's quest
Frivolous. Hey, whatever floats yer boat, Wesp. It has very limited use, by that late stage of the game.

Created Justicar guards at Giovanni Mansion
Of course you did, Wesp. NEXT...

Made cemetery quest easier
Again: of course you did, Wesp. Easier, easier, easier: that's your favorite buzzword. Try using brains next time and bypass the zombies if they're too hard for you.

Lessened the sway of zoomed weapons
More ez-mode crappola for gun nuts. Use other weapons, if you don't like the reality of tele-optics.

Made Yukie give you the Ra blade
Whatever. NEXT...

Provided a xp for keeping Zhao alive
...'k. Enough already, with the ez-mode XP gains, Wesp. If you need an overpowered character that badly, then YOU SUCK AT THIS GAME. Learn to make intelligent choices, when you allocate those precious points. And then, learn to USE YOUR STRENGTHS and AVOID YOUR WEAKNESSES.

Awarded a xp for killing Bruno Giovanni
And again: of course you did. More freebies from Wesp to the n00bs. No wonder they praise him.

Lowered lockpicking skill needed for chemical substances door to 10.
Wesp... you need to get the door opened with the key. That involves using your head. PLAY THE GAME.

Adjusted damage values of Steyr Aug, SWAT rifle and Ithaca shotgun.
YAh... more damage for guns again. Wesp is clearly not getting it about guns in VTMB and he never will.

Awarded a xp for getting Imalia's magazine to compensate money loss.
More free XP from Wesp. More, more, more..!!! Soon, we won't even have to THINK when we play..!!! Woooo hoooo..!!! Next, he'll be editing out all the four-leter words, so the game will be REALLY suitable for children. He's already handed the kids just about everything else.

Provided a humanity point for not telling Hannah that Paul is dead.
Actually... this seems logical to me. BUT... you need to have Dementation, so that she's positive that you're actually Paul -- and that means it's only viable for Malks. Nice try, Wesp. Stop homogenizing the clans and stop sabotaging VTMB's writers.

Adjusted knockback ranges for McLusky, SWAT rifle and the shotguns.
More ez-mode and game-unbalancing "gun nut" perks from Wesp.

Removed illogical placed flamethrower and Ra blade from Hallowbrook
Why was it illogical..? It was intended to give the player a last chance at coping with Andre.

Imalia's magazine quest is now also available after her Tawni quest.
Whatever.

Made CD quest available to all clans as Malkavian lines were there.
That quest was originally intended to be for Nossies and Malks only. The reasons have to do with the peculiar aspects of those two clans and it's a perk for playing either of them. Once again, Wesp is homogenizing the game for ALL clans. Wesp has removed re-playability again. BIG MISTAKE.

Changed damage of blunt weapons to fist < arm < baton < bat < iron.
Why..? Was this broken, too..? Explain, please.

Made Bach drop rifle or sword on defeat
Isn't it enough for roleplayers to know that Bach is dead..? Also, we have only 60 seconds to run to safety after he dies. Who in the hell would stop to look around for goodie drops..? Only an idiot would, Wesp. The rest of us will be running to save our lives -- since a freebie weapon isn't of very much use to a dead player.

Provided two xp for freeing Ash from the Society of Leopold caverns.
More free XP from Wesp -- the anti-roleplayers' hero.

The White Cloud doors in Chinatown will be open from the beginning.
Why..? Every other door is closed. More ez-mode crap for the impatient crowd, from The Mighty Wesp.

Removed Yukies untakeble sword and changed the dialogue accordingly.
Why..? Have you become a better writer than Brian Mitsoda is..? Change it back.


I think my dissection of the above "patch notes" from Wesp are a clear indication that he is causing far more harm than good to VTMB. Now, if he would change the nomenclature on his work to "mod" instead of "patch," then I'd have nothing to say about it. Mods are fine... even if they do dumb down the game so severely that people like me would laugh at it. BUT... when you continue to mislead the public into thinking this mod is a "patch," then you're doing every single VTMB player -- especially NEW players who may not know better yet -- an immense disservice and in fact, you may be ruining the replayability of the game for them in the long run. This is not a "patch," it's more a case of SABOTAGE in the form of a VERY POORLY THOUGHT-OUT GAMEPLAY MOD.

Wesp's patches are irresponsible, frivolous and heavily biased towards ONE and ONLY ONE type of overly-simplistic and impatient playing style. So far as I can tell, Wesp and his ilk are seeking to turn the player (and this entire game)  into "Gordon Freeman: Vampire." On that basis, they should be boycotted by all truly committed roleplayers. If you wish to enjoy the true experience of VTMB, as originally intended by Troika, then avoid Wesp's work in the way that a true vamp would avoid the naked sunshine. It'll kill your game.


- Tessera -

[wesp5]

Okay, just for all the people reading this board only my reply on the Planet Vampire forums (let's see if Tessera is man enough to let it stay here :


Awarded xp when releasing Julius
A very bad change that destroys the intention by Troika that the player make a value judgement and a moral choice.

We already discussed this one here but I'll repeat it: There are two similar situations in Bloodlines where you get the choice to protect the Masquerade either via force or talking (Patty and the serial killer). In both cases you get xp for both solutions, so I think getting only xp for using force on Julius was clearly an oversight.


Modified bad discipline effects for non humans, thanks to Populism.
Sounds like he wants vamp disciplines to do more harm to other vamps.

Here Tessera again does not know what he is talking about. I just changed disciplines so that non humans won't get wrong effects anymore, like looping Blood Purge explosion animations or floor markings right through their body. Nothing more.


Gave Colt to Boris.
Why..? Was he lonely..?

Yeah, Boris is the big bad Russian Mafia boss and while all his guards are using MAC10s, he is content with a .38, a "purse gun" as Bloodlines calls it. Sorry, that seems inconsistent to me. Also Tessera always complains that the patches allegedly make the game too easy so this should improve the balance.


Unbarred Ming's Temple door
Simply push the bar with your body until it's out of the way, just as you would in real life.

Yes, but for a lot of people this just doesn't work, which Tessera would have known if he cared a little bit about other peoples problems. I thought a lot about moving the bar and wasn't lucky at all to do it, but the unmovable bar was a complete game stopper for many players. Also barring the outside doesn't make much sense in the first place. Do they want to keep Ming Xiao from going out ?


Turned character screens music off and lowered Venus' cut to $125.
Whattya want... egg in yer suds..?! The music is fine and Venus gives us 250 bucks every three days.

The music is not fine when the level itself has another music playing which ends up in a horrible mess. Venus' cut was lowered to $125 from my own raise to always $250.


Reduced zombie spawning frequency in Hollywood Cemetary.
Yah... because guns were never meant by Troika to be super-uber in this game and that scene is proof of how ineffective they are against undeads.

Who was talking about guns? This level was hard for many people including myself and I don't think I changed the frequency so much as that most people would notice it.


Granted humanity for persuading Therese and Jeanette to make peace.
A free Humanity gain..? Why..?

For not getting one of their personalities killed? I think this one was obvious. You get one for releasing the serial killer as well.


Lowered baseball bat, tire iron and new katana skill requirements.
More of Wesp's ez-mode crappola, for unskilled beginners who can't seem to understand that you have a brain, too.

Again I just did this to make the game world more consistent or why is bashing with a baseball bat harder than using a baton?


Made Trip sell crossbows
Great... so now, Trip sells a weapon in act 1 that we don't even see (or need) until act 3.

Trip will sell the crossbow after you can get it from the asian vampire, for those that got his katana. After all why are we getting a cool weapon so late in the game it is no use at all anymore?


Tseng will offer the SPAS directly and the flaming crossbow later.
WTF..?! Why, so you can bypass more roleplaying content..? Try being nice to Mercurio... you'll get your SPAS from him, as per Troika's intentions. As for the crossbow, you're supposed to find one, not get it from Tseng.

Again Tessera doesn't know what he is talking about. You can get the SPAS already from almost any vendor when you enter Chinatown, so there is no gameplay change at all making Tseng offer it. I did it because you can see it on his display! The flaming crossbow is available originally not until the endgame which is much too late to make sense.


Made Larry's quest independent of buying
This makes absolutely no sense from a roleplaying perspective.

The original version makes no sense from a gaming perspective. Lots of player never got this quest because they didn't buy stuff from him. On the other hand Larry should be sophisticated enough to recognize all the gear you are carrying around at that state of the game.


Removed another warehouse spawning
More ez-mode changes from Wesp, for the legions of the unskilled.

Sorry, but this was just a bug fix or do you think thugs should appear out of thin air on an empty staircase behind your back? That goes for most of the spawning issues.


Made all enemies drop their weapon when killed
More ez-mode crap. This change is totally unnecessary, but Wesp obviously wants everyone to get rich quick.

Again I did this to make the game world more consistent and a lot of people didn't like weapons evaporating right before their eyes. But maybe that's realistic gameplay for Tessera.


Lowered .38 ammo price and time when crossbow bolts are available.
More ez-mode crap for the FPS crowd. Repeat after me: VTMB IS NOT A FIRST-PERSON SHOOTER GAME.

Sorry, Bloodlines is about choices and you can play it like a FPS. I just balanced that doing this was much harder from the start than going melee.


Added humanity loss for sending Copper after Nines, LaCroix, or the President
That scene was intended to be comic relief and is a roleplaying perk ONLY.

Sorry, but I see no comic relief sending him after LaCroix. That's just plain good RPG and should be honoured.


Cops now have Glocks and dead enemies will drop somewhat more ammo.
L.A.P.D. beat cops use whatever are prescribed as "standard issue" weapons. I've never heard of them using Glocks

I was told differently and again, LAPD Cops using a "purse gun"?


Made paying angered Vandal easier
All I need to see is the word "easier" in Wesp's notes and I start laughing again. 'Nuff said on that one.

I think this was just a messup in the dialogue where you had to go through some loops before getting there.


Made Thistle improve Dodge only.
Why..? Was this broken..?

Yes. The Thistle always improved Dodge only, I just changed the description accordingly. Another readme misunderstanding.


Removed the zoom mode of the 'Jamie Sue' and raised damage instead.
Raised damage..? Why..?

The original Jamie Sue made much more damage zoomed than unzoomed which makes no sense as it has no scope. I removed the zoom and balanced this by raising the overall damage.


Moved computers and firearms books from Trip to clinic and Carson.
Why..? To make it easier again..?

No, to prevent exploiting a bug, because after buying a book and then selling it, you could buy and use several copies. That was clearly not intended. As I couldn't fix that bug I tried choosing another route that wouldn't make that bug obvious.


Made Tseng not offer blood as he doesn't even know about vampires.
Did you sit down with Tseng and ask him about vamps, Wesp..?

No, but all over Bloodlines there is Vampire related dialogue if someone knows about them and for Tseng there is none. He is just a weapon dealer and doesn't even has a fridge to keep the blood in.


Venus will now give you a constant $250 payment when you visit her.
WHY..?!

Because Acleacius convinced me that Venus does not actually distinguishes short or long terms between payments. It seems she really does so I changed that back to $125 and $250.


Made Mitnick mail his reward already after the first schrecknet hub.
More ez-mode nonsense for unskilled and impatient players, who don't want to actually finish the entire quest chain.

Besides that I included the reward in the first place , it was brought to my attention that you need high hacking skills for his quest and Mitnick would be stupid to give it to you afterwards.


Raised chances for Jeanette and Therese peace and Jeanette winning.
Yah... because Wesp wants every kid on the block to have a chance to sleep with Jeanette.

Again, Tessera does not know what he is talking about. Besides sleeping with Jeanette is possible in my patch without uniting them , RobinHood70 restored the original Jeanette/Therese uniting routine which was much harder than the easy version that ended up in the game.


Lowered Persuasion requirements for all Giovannis to the same value
Well, of course you did..!!! Because lord knows, all of them are exactly the same in terms of willpower.

No, because Acleacius calculated for me that getting Persuasion 9 for one of them would never make sense because just getting it would have you waste more xp than you'll ever get out of it. Pure RPG gaming there again.


Made it possible for all clans to get the secret info from Johansen.
Of course, because as we all know, every clan is exactly the same and none of them have any speial abilities of their own.

I think this was just a bug fix with the perception condition already in there but just messed up.


You will receive a point of humanity for warning Wong Ho about Ming.
This is idiotic, Wesp. Wong Ho worships Ming Xiao out of fear, gratitude or both. He won't believe you and Troika has made that fact quite clear, via Wong Ho's dialogue.

Again Tessera is wrong, Wong Ho says: "I... believe you. Perhaps I will close the restaurant, get Kiki, and go away for a while." Then a variable is set called G.WongHo_Alive = 1. So he believed you, went away and lived.


Gaining the Tremere haven is now independent from the quests order.
Why..? Was this broken, too..? Or you just have no patience..? Why is so much of your "patch" biased towards the Tremere clan in the first place..?

This was just broken and I never played a Tremere and I am not biased towards them. Again this is just Tessera's imagination.


Put ten 'Jamie Sue' rounds in Romero's trunk for the cemetery quest.
More ez-mode crap for the FPS crowd that does not and SHOULD NOT belong in this game.

Sorry, this was just to compensate for the one shot change of the Jamie Sue else you would get the rifle but no ammo.


Lowered humanity points gainable during the serial killer dialogue.
Why..? Was it broken..? Or is it because you'd rather just force everyone to kill him instead..?

I think it was. Anyway, why does this bother Tessera when he wants to get no humanity for letting Julius go?


You'll lose a point of humanity for giving the pendant to Jeanette.
Why..?

Because you damn a poor soul forever. This is not about some ingame penalties, it's about the story!


Stopped VV sending her poster so you won't miss out on Gary's email.
This isn't a fix.

Besides the missing Gary quest it is somekind of a fix because a) VV never mentiones the poster and b) how is she supposed to place it in your haven?


Restored welcome lines of Bertram including xp gain
MORE XP..!!

Well, the xp point was already there, just the lines to get it were messed up. And regarding the xp, Bloodlines contains about 250 xp, I restored about 10. That's about 4%, big deal!


You will lose a humanity point when making Ash exchange his clothes.
Why..? Explain this one fully, please.

Because an innocent guy will die. Quite obvious I would say.


Restored xp gain for entering the Gallery Noir by befriending Chunk.
This is more ez-mode crap and if Troika had wanted it to be there, then it would be there.

This was just another xp point missing because of messed up lines fix. After all if Troika had wanted us to come back from Leopold with the taxi they would have made it so .


Made Bruno attack on lockpicking the Giovanni Mansion meeting-room.
Why..?

Because otherwise you would see that the meeting room is full of Bruno dummies.


Making love to Jeanette is now possible before taking on her quest.
Once again, Wesp is obssessed with screwing Jeannette,

Yeah, who has the homepage full of women here, me or Tessera ? No, it was just to provide this choice to people who could not save her.


You will lose humanity for taking money for solving the Tawni quest.
Why..? You didn't kill Tawni, she killed herself.

She killed herself because of the things you did.


Lowered additional damage done by all weapons using the zoom modus.
Why..?

Because it is against common sense. Why should a bullet do more damage when fired after using a scope?


Prevented revisiting Ocean House.
Why..?

Because the scripting is messed up on revisit.


Removed bonus for stealth killing Johnny and made guards more aware.
Riiiight... because we don't want to reward the player for using their heads, instead of a gun.

No, because the script makes it impossible to stealth kill him.


Moved occult items from warrens and Tseng's to be rewards of Mr. Ox.
Frivolous and arbitrary.

I think I explained that already. I don't think the Nosferatu would leave powerups laying around and contrary to Tseng Mr. Ox is a occult character.


Lessened damage for frenzy check
Why..? Was it broken..?

Yes. I never frenzied even once. Did you?


Made vendors sell SWAT rifle bullets and lowered price of fire axe.
Of course you did, Wesp..!!

Yes, because otherwise the rifle Dan included in his first patch would make no sense with no ammunition available at all.


Removed npctemplate* files, delete those if found in /vdata/system.
Why..? Were they broken, too..? Explain this in detail Wesp, if you can.

I included the unused dog model and tried to correct it's values but it didn't work out without breaking other stuff. So I removed the changes again.


Made killing Lu lower humanity.
Why..?

Because you loose one for Ji and they should be equal.


Provided baseball bat and tire iron to anyone skipping the tutorial.
Naturally.

Hmmm, maybe Tessera is right for once. After all you do not undertake the course so how are you supposed to get the stuff? I will consider removing this in the next patch. What do others think about this?


Lessened MAC-10 kickback on firing with increasing firearms skills.
Why..? Was it broken, Wesp..?

Yes, even now StarWrecker confirms it's still craptacular .


Made Empire clerk bisexual, responding to Seduction from either sex.
Why..?

Okay, RobinHood70 made this and I never bothered to change it. Please ask him why he did it.


Put Obfuscate and lockpicking powerups in sewer and downtown havens.
Why..?

Because these were unfinished powerups that I restored and had to put somewhere. The havens seemed a good choice as a reward for players getting them.


Granted occult hacking powerup as reward for doing Mitnick's quest
Frivolous. Hey, whatever floats yer boat, Wesp. It has very limited use, by that late stage of the game.

That's why I moved it up, see somewhere above. Anyway this was another cut item I was glad to restore to the game.


Created Justicar guards at Giovanni Mansion
Of course you did, Wesp.

Tessera probably again does not know what this means. I just restored cool looking unused guard models into the Giovanni Mansion.


Provided a xp for keeping Zhao alive
...'k. Enough already, with the ez-mode XP gains, Wesp.

Keeping Zhao alive is hard work, as well as killing Bruno, both should be rewarded.


Lowered lockpicking skill needed for chemical substances door to 10.
Wesp... you need to get the door opened with the key.

Yes, and you can't do it another way. I just changed it from 11 because I think this is no valid value for lockpicking in VTM.


Adjusted damage values of Steyr Aug, SWAT rifle and Ithaca shotgun.
YAh... more damage for guns again.

Who said I made them do more damage?


Awarded a xp for getting Imalia's magazine to compensate money loss.
More free XP from Wesp.

You do a quest, you get xp. This is the basic rule of RPG.


Provided a humanity point for not telling Hannah that Paul is dead.
Actually... this seems logical to me. BUT... you need to have Dementation, so that she's positive that you're actually Paul -- and that means it's only viable for Malks.

No, I thinks it's available for all clans.


Removed illogical placed flamethrower and Ra blade from Hallowbrook
Why was it illogical..? It was intended to give the player a last chance at coping with Andre.

Tessera always seems to see Bloodlines just as a game, I see it as a game world that has to make sense. I said this here somewhere already, why would the Sabbat attack you with knifes and .38s when a katana and a flamethrower are nearby?


Made CD quest available to all clans as Malkavian lines were there.
That quest was originally intended to be for Nossies and Malks only.

No, it was originally doable for Nosferatu only but the Malkavian lines showed that it was intended for other clans.


Changed damage of blunt weapons to fist &lt;arm &lt;baton &lt;bat &lt;iron.
Why..? Was this broken, too..?

Yes. I think the arm made more damage than all other blunt weapons which didn't made sense.


Made Bach drop rifle or sword on defeat
Isn't it enough for roleplayers to know that Bach is dead..? Also, we have only 60 seconds to run to safety after he dies.

Tessera is wrong again. Bach drops the rifle the first time you defeat him. You have all the time to get it.


The White Cloud doors in Chinatown will be open from the beginning.
Why..? Every other door is closed.

No. Most other doors are openable. The way it was first the whole Ox quests could be missed completely. But I changed the readme to avoid misunderstandings.


Removed Yukies untakeble sword and changed the dialogue accordingly.
Why..? Have you become a better writer than Brian Mitsoda is..? Change it back.

Well, it's like that: Yukie has that great sword lying around. You ask her for it but she won't give it to you. So you either kill her on the spot or come back later when she is gone and get it. Oops, you can't get it. She obviously welded it to the counter. Sorry, but that's no good writing to me. Having her present you the Ra blade as a reward makes much more sense to me. What do other people think?


Short summary: If I change anything in my patches I always aim to make the game world more real and consistent because I think this is what makes Bloodlines so great even compared to similar games like Deus Ex, where it was just too obvious that the world was constructed to be a game. In Bloodlines everything flows naturally together and I'm just removing the last bumps !

[Tessera]

I know precisely what I'm talking about, Wesp. I'm simply not looking for an easy ride through VTMB. You know that everything I wrote in my post is correct... you simply don't like it, because it makes you appear foolish. I'm sorry about that, but the facts are now out in the open and I didn't create those facts... you did.

As for how much of a man I can be, you're still here, correct..? 

The difference between you and me, Wesp, is the difference between Neverwinter Nights and Doom 3. The other difference is that I know when it's time to play another game, when the one that I'm playing isn't my favorite kind.

I'll leave you to ponder what that means. In the meantime, I am sticking to what Troika wanted, not what you and your accolytes want. When you and they can develop a game as well as Troika did, then we'll all discuss your opinions some more.

[wesp5]

I know precisely what I'm talking about, Wesp. I'm simply not looking for an easy ride through VTMB. You know that everything I wrote in my post is correct...

Sorry, this is not true and we would go along much better if you would admit that you got some of your issues completely wrong, e.g.:

1) Added humanity loss for killing innocents in several combat areas.
There are no such things as "innocents" in combat areas. That rule was made very clear by Troika.

No. Read manual page 10 or just replay the tutorial. You'll notice that both suggest that there can be innocents in combat areas. Granted, most other levels and the loading tip show otherwise. So what shall we do? My guess it that Troika hadn't had enough time to redo all combat areas to implement this rule but I could. I also easily changed the loading tip but noone of us can change the printed manual so I think my solution is the right one.

ADDED BY TESSERA: No Wesp, the "innocents" disappear the minute your little icon on the left side of your HUD turns into a pistol. You should know that, if you've read that very same manual that you've cited. Just because there are innocents right outside the door doesn't mean anything. If you have the pistol icon up on your HUD, then you can kill whomever you wish to. That was done to prevent the player from taking a penalty due to crossfire issues, Wesp. Wanna test this..? Go kill the bum near the warehouse. Did you get a penalty..? No, no... not in your version. Now go try it in the original version.

2) Modified bad discipline effects for non humans, thanks to Populism.
Sounds like he wants vamp disciplines to do more harm to other vamps.

Please prove to me that this statement of yours is correct. Sorry, but you just second-guessed and guessed wrong. To really see what I did, try Blood Boil on the three headed Tzimidzse creation in the warrens with and without my patch.

ADDED BY TESSERA: the proof that I am correct lies in the fact that Troika did not create the game that way, Wesp. That's all the proof that anyone needs.

3) Made Thistle improve Dodge only.
Why..? Was this broken..?

Yes. Again, even Acrimonious didn't took the time to check the problem. The description was wrong, my mistake for stating it misunderstandingly in the patch readme. I have changed that now.

4) You will receive a point of humanity for warning Wong Ho about Ming.
This is idiotic, Wesp. Wong Ho worships Ming Xiao out of fear, gratitude or both. He won't believe you and Troika has made that fact quite clear, via Wong Ho's dialogue.

I proofed that you are wrong on this one already in my first answer.

ADDED BY TESSERA: no Wesp, you've simply proven that, as usual, you don't like the way Troika created their game and their characters' relationships. Unfortunately for you, that is the way that the game was intended to be played.

5) Made Bruno attack on lockpicking the Giovanni Mansion meeting-room.
Why..? Bruno attacks you anyway, no matter how you enter his room... unless you enter along with his bodyguard and that requires actually using your head first -- god forbid.

I stated here several times where the problem is. Please noclip into the room and describe what you see. Also there is no way to enter with a bodyguard, I don't know what you are talking about here...

ADDED BY TESSERA: It was late when I posted that and I was confusing Bruno with Boris. Ignore that comment. I had been up all night, squinting at Malk pixels.

6) Removed bonus for stealth killing Johnny and made guards more aware.
Riiiight... because we don't want to reward the player for using their heads, instead of a gun.

Do you remember the cutscene at that situation? There is no way to stealth kill Johnny.

ADDED BY TESSERA: then why did you change anything..? For fun..?

I could go on but these were the most critical points. I admit that some people may see some of my changes as modding although I think the patch readme of "Gothic 3" proofs that even some famous developers see this the same way I do. To make this clearer I'll even add the following sentence to my next patch readme: "This patch fixes many bugs, restores unused content and mods some of the game slightly to improve the consistency of the world." It would be great if you too would admit that several of your claims are wrong or completely over the top...

ADDED BY TESSERA: my major claim, Wesp, is that YOU have gone over-the-top with your mods and furthermore, that you've misled the public by irresponsibly calling your mods a "patch." That is the major issue here. Nitpicking over each detail is NOT the issue that we have, Wesp. Regardless of what is or is not subjectively "better" or "best" for this game, the fact remains that you've completely bastardized VTMB and changed it into an ez-mode, first person shooter affair. Your versions of VTMB are so far removed from the original design concept that for you to keep calling it a "patch" is an insult to the rest of us.

[Tessera]

Please read my added comments to your post, Wesp. They are all in red text.

Now... instead of fighting with me about this, would you like to calm down and help out, instead..? Because I refuse to fight with you and that's why I abandoned those topics over on the Planet Vamp board. I meant what I said about your work -- every single word -- but that opinion can be very easily changed... BY YOU, Wesp. Just stop misleading people and I'll have no further issues with your stuff.

[wesp5]

ADDED BY TESSERA: No Wesp, the "innocents" disappear the minute your little icon on the left side of your HUD turns into a pistol. You should know that, if you've read that very same manual that you've cited.

No. Please read the manual again. It says: Additionally, you will not lose humanity if you kill an AGGRESSIVE NPC in a COMBAT AREA. So you will lose humanity when killing a NONAGGRESSIVE NPC in a COMBAT ZONE. Replay the tutorial and drain the guy you should feed on. This is right inside a combat zone, the gun icon is up there and you will fail because you have killed an innocent!

2) Modified bad discipline effects for non humans, thanks to Populism.
Sounds like he wants vamp disciplines to do more harm to other vamps.

Please prove to me that this statement of yours is correct. Sorry, but you just second-guessed and guessed wrong. To really see what I did, try Blood Boil on the three headed Tzimidzse creation in the warrens with and without my patch.

ADDED BY TESSERA: the proof that I am correct lies in the fact that Troika did not create the game that way, Wesp. That's all the proof that anyone needs.

That's stupid because Troika created a game with hundreds of bugs and if you are that kind of purist you shouldn't fix any of them and just use the official 1.2 patch. Back to the issue, you probably didn't try it so I will describe it to you: If you use Blood Boil on that monster, the animation will freeze during the blow up and the monster will stay in an eternal loop with bloody streaks right through it. That's quite obvious not intended!

4) You will receive a point of humanity for warning Wong Ho about Ming.
This is idiotic, Wesp. Wong Ho worships Ming Xiao out of fear, gratitude or both. He won't believe you and Troika has made that fact quite clear, via Wong Ho's dialogue.

I proofed that you are wrong on this one already in my first answer.

ADDED BY TESSERA: no Wesp, you've simply proven that, as usual, you don't like the way Troika created their game and their characters' relationships. Unfortunately for you, that is the way that the game was intended to be played.

Hello? You claimed that Wong Ho would not believe you. Troika itself saw that differently which setting a variable called G.WongHo_Alive = 1 is proof enough. Also the newspaper show that I am right too.

6) Removed bonus for stealth killing Johnny and made guards more aware.
Riiiight... because we don't want to reward the player for using their heads, instead of a gun.

Do you remember the cutscene at that situation? There is no way to stealth kill Johnny.

ADDED BY TESSERA: then why did you change anything..? For fun..?

No, because you got a bonus xp for something you didn't do.

ADDED BY TESSERA: my major claim, Wesp, is that YOU have gone over-the-top with your mods and furthermore, that you've misled the public by irresponsibly calling your mods a "patch."

How often do I need to repeat that I just continued the work of Dan Upright and he started "modding" it already with his first patch. I think I will just stop talking against the wall and discuss the details of what actually can be done with Acrimonious...

[Tessera]

You are incorrect as always, Wesp. Your subjective personal interpretations of the game's events and mechanics have no place in this discussion. The sooner you get that through your head, then the sooner that you can start making some actual progress here.

The game will be restored to what Troika intended it to be -- just minus the bugs. Live with it.

[Twisted_Mentat]

And the token Newb walks up to the podium. . .

[Tessera]

And the token Newb walks up to the podium. . .

Heh... was that some sort of personal introduction..?

Hello then, Mister Token Newb. Welcome to the forums. 

[Twisted_Mentat]

Then subsequently trips over (never hit tab-enter while typing your reply  )

I'll skip as much pre-amble as possible due to my fierce hate of forums and lack of knowledge (playtime at least) of the majotiry of Vampire.

The first thing to make clear is that typically, i mod any game i can as heavily as is feasable without sacrificing stability, performance or most importantly the initial "pure" run of the game. Initial play(s) complete, pretty much anything goes.
As a sidenote. I consider patches to be developer released essential game-core Fixes, modifications are optional/frivolous content (new items, Locations, Models, quests, etc.). Fixes and Mods can be released by anyone dev included (the more the better IMO). However, i consider it a fine line between re-integration of abandoned features and modification. Enabling and modifying the game to use such features is both a fantastic idea and great accomplishment, i am mereley unable to accept their inexplicable appearance at my (proverbialy pixelated) feet, who is to say there was not supposed to be an access quest/gameplay feature missing that would have served as introduction?

To this end the only Vampire patch i have installed thus far has been the 1.2 official mod (Contemplating 2.4 due to numerous recomendations).  As such i am still playing the bug-ridden crash happy mess that is the official game.
Coincidentally i'm loving every second of it.

However. I would give a kings ransom (ownership of nonwithstanding) to get a version of the game that simply WORKS, no new enemies, no cone of fire tweaks, no damage changes, no increace in the xp to be gained (marginal though it may be) so on and so forth.
Unreleased content can be left out entireley, even if it requires no extra mini-mods or potentially unbalancing aditions to work. It was most likely left out for a reason!

At least this applies for the first play or two. Afterwards will be a different matter, let my vamp jump from balcony to rooftop to victim in the middle of the street (Masquerade be damned), i'm in this for the fun of it! Lets face it so few games are worth replaying that when you find one you like, do everything you can to keep it going.

Time to get back to the point 
Since i installed the beloved game the Unofficial patches have been complete no go areas, my interest lies in playing the developers game. At this stage no matter how well intentioned, coded or seamless user created additions are i wont play them.
To this end the alternative (derivative?) mod/fix to be released by Acrimonious is a godsend. Stripping as many elements not in the original *Release* as he can from wesp5 (and collegue, contributor, predecessors) file while keeping the various bug and exploit fixes will allow me to play the game in the way i enjoy (Bug *free*).

Someone please tell me WHY this is a BAD thing?

Acrimonious said from the off that full credit would go to those that made the work he uses as a base. With Tessera's offer of free hosting attached to the deal (lets face it the VTMB is pretty old now) there's no reason i can see not to welcome his efforts with open arms. Especially so if like myself (or for role-play reasons) you just want to play a relativeley bug-free version of the game Troika spent so much effort just getting onto a disk. Hell once you have had your fill just install the latest Unofficial patch and see for yourself what all the fuss was about, i know i will.

P.S. Only Troika knew what the intentions were towards the unfinished and non-enabled content and no one i am aware of has had access to their plans (written or otherwise) for such content, so how is ANYONE to say what form, or indeed IF the code would have been implemented into the game? I will say that we must have mised out on some incredible content (dont we always though  ).

Well this is my 2pence worth. I'll leave it to the rest of you to ignore, agree with or even argue (not on my internet you won't!) my comments. For the paranoid among you these are my personal ideas and as such i hold the right to change my mind on any given point as well as declare this entire 2 hour long chapter to be a mis-interpretation of my thoughts (text is such an imperfect communication methiod  )

P.P.S Tessera please feel free to shift this to anywhere you consider most appropriate, i may be a little off topic for this specific thread. Trying to modify that old post was hell, decided to start anew.

[Tessera]

As a sidenote. I consider patches to be developer released essential game-core Fixes, modifications are optional/frivolous content (new items, Locations, Models, quests, etc.). Fixes and Mods can be released by anyone dev included (the more the better IMO). However, i consider it a fine line between re-integration of abandoned features and modification.

We agree. This has been my personal stance on this issue from the beginning.

However. I would give a kings ransom (ownership of nonwithstanding) to get a version of the game that simply WORKS, no new enemies, no cone of fire tweaks, no damage changes, no increace in the xp to be gained (marginal though it may be) so on and so forth. Unreleased content can be left out entireley, even if it requires no extra mini-mods or potentially unbalancing aditions to work. It was most likely left out for a reason!

That is what Acrimonious has done. I've been testing his patch for two days now and no new content has been added... just bug fixes. He also changed every other thing back to the way Troika had it in their release (the version that you've been playing). The only exception is the various clan "Histories" that were supposed to be included in the original release, according to Troika. They were omitted because several were unfinished, not because Troika thought they sucked or were unbalanced or whatever. It was more a case of ActiVision pushing VTMB out the door, before it was ready. The code and scripts for all of those histories are included on the game's DVD... they just didn't get enabled, so far as I know. Now they are working as intended and they're also optional (you don't have to select one when you create your character, if you don't want to).

Time to get back to the point 
Since i installed the beloved game the Unofficial patches have been complete no go areas, my interest lies in playing the developers game. At this stage no matter how well intentioned, coded or seamless user created additions are i wont play them.
To this end the alternative (derivative?) mod/fix to be released by Acrimonious is a godsend. Stripping as many elements not in the original *Release* as he can from wesp5 (and collegue, contributor, predecessors) file while keeping the various bug and exploit fixes will allow me to play the game in the way i enjoy (Bug *free*).

He's done an excellent job, too. He worked for a week on this project. He was up into the wee hours, busting his ass on it, every single night. It's playing like a dream, so far.

Someone please tell me WHY this is a BAD thing?

It's not. There's no way that it -could- be a bad thing. The people who claim that it's a bad thing are obviously suffering from misplaced loyalties to a very poorly thought out agenda.

Acrimonious said from the off that full credit would go to those that made the work he uses as a base. With Tessera's offer of free hosting attached to the deal (lets face it the VTMB is pretty old now) there's no reason i can see not to welcome his efforts with open arms.

Thank you very much and that is, indeed, what we intend to do. I am very grateful for your support.

[Acrimonious]

Twisted-Mentat, you are exactly the kind of person I am doing this for.  It's nice to see somebody who appreciates it, especially after taking a gander at the shitstorm this stirred up over at planetvampire.  I really didn't think it was going to be that big a deal. 

Oh, and the clan histories thing was done in one of Wesp's patches.  In the original game, and version 1.2, the histories were pretty buggy.  Sometimes the game would crash when you switched from one history to another as you tried to decide which one you wanted, or if you changed clans while you had a history selected that wasn't available for the new clan.  I'm pretty sure Wesp fixed this, he disabled some histories that really didn't do anything, and he corrected some bugs in others.  Overall, I consider it a fix so I left it in.

I've seen some people say that I should have done as Wesp did and start with version 1.2, then fix all the bugs myself.  Why should I revinvent the wheel?  I already apologized to Wesp for "taking" his work, and I will give full credit where it is due so I don't consider this to be an issue anymore.  If some people want to continue to bash me for it - fuck 'em. 

[Tessera]

Heh... that's not why they're bashing us. That's just their excuse. They're actually bashing us because I rightfully pointed out that Wesp has spent two years forcing everyone to accept his massive gameplay mods -- along with his bug fixes. In my view, that's a case of Wesp holding the entire community hostage: "If you want VTMB to work properly, then you must play it MY WAY." His dictatorial attitude as shown on this very board should very nicely sum up where Wesp's head is at. You want VTMB to be bug free..? Then Wesp insists that you turn it into an ez-mode, first person shooter as well. That's his package -- take it or leave it. Well, we decided to leave it and FIX it. Before he and his accolytes begin ranting about what is or is not fair and proper, they should re-read this paragraph as many times as it takes to open their goddamned eyes.

So, I publically and forcefully called a spade a spade and now, all of Wesp's little groupies are flying off the handle. I've been barraged over there at PV with vicious personal insults by at least a half-dozen "regulars." That board's own moderators have likewise decided to circle the wagons along with the legions of the misled and they issued a warning to ME. Why..? Because I had the audacity to respond to personal abuse over there with my own brand of ass-whipping. I don't back down from a fight, but apparently I'm expected to take it and not dish it back out to the source. No chance. No chance in hell... not when I know that we're in the right.

So as you've said... fuck 'em. I withdrew voluntarily from that board and as far as I'm concerned, that's their loss. If they want our true bug fix only patch, then they know where to find it and you can BET YOUR ASS that at least some of those nasty cretins who attacked us will ultimately end up using our version and preferring it. Mark my words.

[Twisted_Mentat]

Glad to be making a positive impact. TBH, my type typically dont post.
Download. . . Install. enjoy? Rrecomend! 

Besides with the 3 day long Nightmare i created for myself trying to figure out how to mod oblivion without conflicts, errors or overwrites, thinking about a game of VTMB that wont crash *seemingly* at random is a nice relaxing thought. especially when thinking about a certain club, with certain music, and certain hostesses with epic voice acting and scriptwriting! I'm getting all spoilered out though so finish Beta already 

As for the oblivion mods, i'm getting there, learned intermediate scripting to bundle mods together, converting everything to omod to make all changes temporary and best of all. Only tried to slit my wrists before reinstalling game once so far today, thats a 500% improvement over yesterday  no doubt i'll hit some programming problem with mod manager and trash all but the reliable stuff (UI tweaks and a high res Elf texture i found nearby  )  Will start playing it properly tomorrow no mater what though, 3 days of learning how to mod a game is far to much, especially for something as open structured as an elder scrolls game.

Official forums are like massive mudfights, no matter what you do you will end up covered in crap while trying to remember the point of it all, to top it all off the mass of flesh writhing around is typically male. . . . (hmm this reply box needs a vomit smiley)

P.S. is wesp the only person still making Vampire patches then? or the only one with an already large database of fixes? You sure it's FPS mode though? Depends on exactly how tweaked the damage charts, not to mention how tight the Cone of Fire now is. It'll be a while before i get to see how much he changed (not that my vamp will ever need a gun, *dances* too sweetly  ). As for starting from 1.2 why the hell should you start there? at the very least the Unofficial mod version prior to wesp's takeover is freely available, the original compiler is long gonne by now. . . Always considered competition as a good thing to have.

Anyways enough from me, keep up the good work, i'm going to bed.

[Acrimonious]

As far as I know, Wesp has been the only one releasing patches for the game for some time now.  Occasionally somebody will come to him with a solution to a bug and he'll put it in.  A lot of the changes he's made that aren't necessarily bug fixes have been done at the request of various players.  Somebody will convince him that something would be better if it worked this way, or wouldn't it be nice if you could get this . . . That's the kind of thing that bugs me about some of his patches.  I don't mind changes that make sense or increase the game's overall consistency.  In fact, I rather enjoy some of those.  I am, however, vehemently opposed to taking frivolous suggestions from random players.  Make a separate mod for those things, or teach people how to do it themselves.

I'm toying with the idea of writing a tutorial for VTMB modding, but I am a horrible teacher and I wouldn't know where to begin.  Probably the most important thing to know is how boolean expressions are evaluated.  If you know the difference between = and ==, that's a good start.

[wesp5]

I've seen some people say that I should have done as Wesp did and start with version 1.2, then fix all the bugs myself.  Why should I revinvent the wheel?  I already apologized to Wesp for "taking" his work, and I will give full credit where it is due so I don't consider this to be an issue anymore.  If some people want to continue to bash me for it - fuck 'em. 

People don't bash you Acrimonious, they bash Tessera because he is lying about what you are doing. He is the one claiming things like "Wesp also took everything that he did in the bug fixes directly from the work of Dan Upright" and "Wesp's work no longer exists to any extent in our patch" (http://www.forumplanet.com/planetvampire/topic.asp?fid=9643&tid=2014642, second post) and you know that this is not true. Just looking at the file size of your patch and the number of files would prove that. This is what makes people mad and you're patch is already losing it's reputation fast because of Tessera. I would recommend that you rectify this here and on the Planet Vampire forum and dissociate yourself and your patch from him and his site. Paines site (http://paine.planetvampire.gamespy.com/index.php?section=2) would be a much better location for something like this in the first place. I have nothing against you and your patch and I can understand people wanting an alternative like this, but unless you do the above I would suggest you restart from the 1.2 official or Dan's 1.2 patch to fit Tessera's claims. It's your choice...

[wesp5]

A lot of the changes he's made that aren't necessarily bug fixes have been done at the request of various players.  Somebody will convince him that something would be better if it worked this way, or wouldn't it be nice if you could get this . . . That's the kind of thing that bugs me about some of his patches. I don't mind changes that make sense or increase the game's overall consistency. 

If you really think like that Acrimonious, come over again to the Planet Vampire forums and convince me why some of my changes were wrong. I would be glad to remove them again if they don't make sense or don't increase the game's overall consistency.

[Tessera]

Wesp,

According to what he has already said to us, Acrimonious has become as disgusted with that board and its behavior as I have. That's why neither of us are posting anything over there anymore. Nice try, Wesp, but you can stop trying to play "divide and conquer" here. Such diversionary tactics will not work, especially since no one on this end has done a single wrong or bad thing -- and we know it. Our patch is finished. Acrimonious has done a fantastic job of fixing your mess. It is already in beta testing as we speak and it will be released very, very soon on this website... for anyone and everyone who wants to use it, totally free-of-charge. I further encourage people to upload the finished version to as many similar sites as they are able to, so as to widely distribute this wonderful piece of work. That is what is best for the VTMB community. Whether or not it is best for Wesp's ego does not interest me.

I think they'll enjoy finally having that choice. If they do not want it, then they do not have to download it. That's what having choices is all about, Wesp.

The fact is, Wesp, that you've had every opportunity to fix this problem yourself, for roughly two years now. I was certainly not the first person to come along and openly challenge your inappropriate gameplay mods. I've been playing this game since it was released and I recall similar battles in the past, on places such as Gamespy. In every case, your response was something arrogant, such as "If you don't like my work, then go ahead and write your own 'patch'." In other words, you bullied people into accepting your version of this game. If they wanted the bug fixes, then they had to accept Wesp's ez-mode, dumbed down, gun-happy content as well. You knew that almost no one would actually have the time nor the ability to sit down and write their own VTMB patch, so you remained smug and continued to push your weight around... for a very long time.

Well guess what, Wesp..? That attitude has finally caught up with you. Somebody actually took you up on your challenge and wrote a new patch... an ACTUAL PATCH... that does not destroy Troika's vision of VTMB.

And Wesp... we both know that THIS is precisely what you are REALLY angry about. You never expected this to happen. Neither did your clueless supporters. Well, now it has actually happened... and you can't stand it. That's why you and your groupies have been carrying on like this. NO OTHER REASON, Wesp, so stop lying your asses off and just accept your own past failings and mistakes.

It's done.